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You are talking about people that track down and hunt albinos for their magical powers, I am not really sure it makes or made a fuck of a lot of difference what or who told them about condoms and their virtues or vices.

that's a pretty convenient (and racist) rationalization, though baseless. catholicism is the fastest growing religion in africa; i'm pretty sure that if the vatican changed it's "death before rubbers, cause i say god says so" stance, efforts to curb the disease might be helped.

They preach abstainence or monogamy. Abstainance is 100% effective

It's not a racist assumption at all. Much of the continent is a hellhole filled w backwards ass people. Agree?

the catholic church, at the highest levels, has protected these priests at the direct expense of their congregants, all over the world.

Is that a problem of the religion, or the person behind it? Pretty sure the Bible doesn't condone behavior that's in direct violation of it.

That's one of the main issues I've had with the Roman Catholic Church - their feeling that they're above prosecution when their actions are in direct violation of the law (BTW, we're taught that the Catholic church is supposed to be all bodies and all denominations, but most don't really recognize the Pope as the closest one to God).

Could be overstepping a bit, but I know my church doesn't pray to the Pope.

HA...neither did mine ever Bass

Let me say this, though - I won't speak ill of the RCC b/c I'm not completely learned up on how they do things. I *do* think that instances where wrongs were done and they were protected by the very body they were supposed to be serving is not cool, at all.

Just like any leadership position, the individual is responsible for upholding the values that he represents. He should be correctly taken to task if his actions directly contradict what he promised to do.

I agree bass. They should all be hung out to dry

And those that were in leadership and helped to 'contain' the issue should be taken to task, as well.

Couldn't agree more

my comment about hitchens was blueeeee

basically, my point is that each religion has many instances of covering up. It's the people abusing and twisting each religion to suit their purposes that is the problem to me.

but that's the natural consequence of religion - it's made up stories that claim divine authority to manipulate and take advantage of human fear and ignorance. if religion really was based on a supreme, loving god, you would imagine he would be able to give directives that did not bring misery and suffering to his followers and did not allow the institutions created in his name to be so completely susceptible to the the indiscretions of man.

if joseph smith says "i think everyone should have 20 wives, cause i'm your leader and i'm horny", he'd be laughed at. but if he says "god told it to me", he gives himself a special authority that can't be rationally discarded. that's the problem to me.

I wouldn't say 'hung out to dry', but he should be at the very least looked into.

When I was younger and was on a school gospel choir, the chaplain had done something that was wrong. He openly admitted what he did, apologized for it, and resigned from his position. No cover-up, no need for a further explanation - just a point that his effectiveness at the position at that point was blunted because of what he had done.

I know chaplain of a choir seems insignificant compared to a high-ranking official of the RCC, but it's that sense of responsibility and effectiveness in your ministry that really makes a difference.

And before you go into it, I am NOT saying cover-ups don't happen everywhere. I'm just saying it's wrong to blame the religion (or Christianity) if the person or people responsible won't come forward with what they've done, especially if they've harmed a number of people.

flesh, I've grown up seeing the vast majority of people be Catholic and not blindly follow the tenets of the Pope. I've seen friends and family of other religions do the same. For most people it's culture, community, and comfort.

The vast majority of people celebrate religion in a way that doesn't hurt others, and enriches their own lives.

A handful of assholes abusing things doesn't change that for me.

Abstainance is 100% effective

and realistic!

Is that a problem of the religion, or the person behind it? Pretty sure the Bible doesn't condone behavior that's in direct violation of it.

the bible condones all kinds of abhorrent behavior, agreed? how to treat slaves, mandate to kill adulterers, blasphemers, those who work on the sabbath... how do you reconcile that, bass, if the bible is the word of god?

but that's the natural consequence of religion - it's made up stories that claim divine authority to manipulate and take advantage of human fear and ignorance. if religion really was based on a supreme, loving god, you would imagine he would be able to give directives that did not bring misery and suffering to his followers and did not allow the institutions created in his name to be so completely susceptible to the the indiscretions of man.

We really could go on for hours about this, but frankly, I prefer to have this discussion in private. Let's just say what I believe is quite different.

if joseph smith says "i think everyone should have 20 wives, cause i'm your leader and i'm horny", he'd be laughed at. but if he says "god told it to me", he gives himself a special authority that can't be rationally discarded. that's the problem to me.

Ah, but that's part of the issue - if you believe there is a God, you'd be able to laugh at his statement because it's not based on theological understanding. Simply me saying 'God told me to destroy left-handed unibrowed Muslims' would be somewhat of a contradiction, given what's said in the Bible. Now if you follow that without doing the research, it's on you. But again, I know where this argument will lead.

The main point, as repeated before, is that there are people who absolutely abuse their power - in and out of the church. You just have to focus on the ones who take their responsibilities seriously, who actually set an example of how things should be, not a sequined robe of what they think it should be.

flesh, I've grown up seeing the vast majority of people be Catholic and not blindly follow the tenets of the Pope. I've seen friends and family of other religions do the same. For most people it's culture, community, and comfort.

so religion isn't really about the absolute word of god? then why can't we discard it completely, and build "culture, community and comfort" on modern, secular grounds?

The vast majority of people celebrate religion in a way that doesn't hurt others, and enriches their own lives.

moderates give cover to fundamentalists in all religions. my father feels the same way you do, and yet totally accepts the bible to be man-made. to him, and others, it's the ritual. i just can't accept this.

the bible condones all kinds of abhorrent behavior, agreed? how to treat slaves, mandate to kill adulterers, blasphemers, those who work on the sabbath... how do you reconcile that, bass, if the bible is the word of god?

No, it doesn't. But this is a VERY long discussion that I can't sum up without KB rolling his eyes. If you're focusing strictly on the Old Testament, there was a lot of stuff done there, but you also have to keep it in the context of what was done. Simply saying 'God killed all of Egypt's firstborn; He's horrible!' isn't a completely accurate statement given the context, but again, I can't sum it up in a neat package here.

Well, I COULD - but it would warrant much further discussion.

And flesh, those points that you brought up, Jesus debunked each one of those, because the religious leaders of the day were so obsessed with the letter of the law that they forgot the reason behind it. They were mostly about glam and show, but their actions display their true intentions.

Ah, but that's part of the issue - if you believe there is a God, you'd be able to laugh at his statement because it's not based on theological understanding.

its not? says you. i can believe in a god that indiscriminately killed, or invoked the killing of, countless innocents, based on revelation, or a christ that by the fact that he was born only two thousand years ago in a specific region of the world thus condemned countless more humans to live and die without knowing him and thus were not saved - but i can't believe god said polygamy was righteous?

there is an entire religious following - fastest growing in the world - that believes joseph smith was the true prophet. a man that was objectively a charlatan and a fraud. there is a giant religion - islam, perhaps you've heard of it - that has it's own "theological understanding" very different from yours. in fact, in their eyes, you are as hellbound as me. i'm not saying this to be a jerk, but who are you to say that their understanding is inferior to yours?

here we go...

No, it doesn't.

but it does, bass! it really does. and jesus' authority, from his own mouth (rather, the mouths of those born centuries later), came from what was prophesized in the old testament.

and you say the rabbi's followed the OT too closely to the letter of the law? did he breakdown exactly what we are supposed to accept and discard from it? i just don't understand how god got some things right and other things wrong the first time around.

god smites me, html-style.

so religion isn't really about the absolute word of god? then why can't we discard it completely, and build "culture, community and comfort" on modern, secular grounds?

b/c this is already a well-established format for these people and they're comfortable with it.

I also believe the bible was man made

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