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I would have read that if it wasn't so long.

But still, I guess what I'm getting at, the indictment says he was there while a dog was being slammed til death into cement, but what I want to know is how they know, other than someone telling them he was there. Something direct that can really put him away for good that he can't blame on someone else or that his lawyer's can't discredit a witness's testimony on the cross-exam because it's right there for all to see/hear.

(Maybe I've seen too many courtroom dramas)

zak, the prosecution has outlined a timeline where vick and his cohorts sought out property (with no house on) which vick paid for, and then put up the money for the dogs, equipment, infrastructure and the like. i assume that besides eyewitness testimony, the evidence that vick bankrolled an enterprise that's only purpose could have been dogfighting will be a major part of their case.

Nope. Different authors. This is kind of a how-to manual if your into, or want to get into, the "bloodsport."

According to court records at least two people who have participated in alleged dog fighting (actual contestants/bettors) on his property have become prosecution witnesses. If they are to be believed, their testimony would place Mr. Mexico at the scene, negating any shred of plausible deniability he has left.

That book is one thing, but the video of this stuff is entirely different. Very, very tough to watch.

and just FYI, as illegal as this all is, dog fighting web sites can be found on the web if you know how to look for them . . . and those who have been imprisoned for these activities are revered as martyrs whose supports seek solicitations for to aid in their legal defense.

If they are to be believed, their testimony would place Mr. Mexico at the scene, negating any shred of plausible deniability he has left.

I'm thinking it can't be all that hard for a high-paid defense lawyer to assassinate a guy's character enough so that his testimony is to be discredited. I mean, we're talking about contestants/bettors of dogfighting who'd be testifying against him here, not exactly the type who fall under the category of honest upstanding citizens.

I'm just saying I think you need a bit more than that.

which vick paid for, and then put up the money for the dogs, equipment, infrastructure and the like.

OK, if Vick's name is on some credit card receipt for purchasing the pit bulls, then that's the sort of thing I was wondering about.

Unlike local district attorneys, who still normally have better than 50 percent conviction rates, federal government lawyers typically don't chase down cases they can't make. Especially not when it involves high profile defendants. Think RICO cases against the mob. They have time to make their cases, more time than DAs, and more resources. I'm not saying it's a done deal -- he could very easily walk or settle, since he has no criminal record, for fines, probation, etc. -- but the future ain't exactly promising.

I understand all of that (re: the feds), which makes me certain they have something other than heresay, but as I said originally...what specifically. Rhetorical question.

I know that in this country people are innocent until proven guilty...

but.. with Vick whatever man. Book'em Danno.

While trying not to sound callous (since this crime is deplorable), his NFL career is basically done, right? Even if he settles or is found not guilty, the stuff that comes out of this will be enough to ruin his rep and keep him out of the NFL?

Vick while guilty will not serve any prison time and will probably be convicted of a lessor offense.. Reverand Al and Jesse will see to that.....

i heard on the radio today that Jesse and Al want no part of this. its a lose/lose situation for them no matter which side they come down on.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusion, or show your biases, BrotherIggle.

Sharpton joined PETA and Russell Simmons in sending a joint letter to the NFL and the Falcons calling for an immediate suspension of Mr. Mexico.

While I'll be the first to admit that Al and Jesse have alligned themselves with the wrong causes/victims in the past, plenty of folks from other races have also defended the indefensible. Try to keep that in mind.

Oh he WILL do some time in prison. Maybe not as MUCH time as one of us low lifes with no money, but he will get his. If Jamal Lewis serves time in prison for conspiracy to buy drugs for a friend, Vick will get his - make no mistake.

I have a big beef with the county prosecutor who was willing to just let this slide (smells of Vick buy off). He was alleging racism on the parts of the Feds for further investigating. Haven't heard "boo" from him since.

ZAK - if you read the affidavit, they have 4 credible witnesses who have given testimony and will testify at trial.

Some irony in all this for me (being a Tech hater) is that the Hokies are having their football kickoff dinner in Richmond next Wednesday night. The following day is Vick's first appearance in U.S. District Court in Richmond. Ha Ha Ha HAAAAA!!!!!

Ookie - you are so toast.

Yes, Bass - his career is OV-AH!!!!

The prosecutor just said yesterday that Vick is now likely to face charges from the local prosecution- so he seems to have done an about face.

He's gotta save face at this point - certainly can't ignore it now that the feds are looking at everything.

The charges against "ookie" do put him at the scene, partaking in the slaughter of the animals.

This is from Bob Ford's article in today's Inquirer: "But when you get to Page 17, you find Charge No. 83: "In or about April 2007, PEACE, PHILLIPS, and VICK executed approximately 8 dogs that did not perform well in 'testing' sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road by various methods, including hanging, drowning, and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground."


I think between the conspiracy charges and this testimony, Vick is in some serious trouble.

But still, I guess what I'm getting at, the indictment says he was there while a dog was being slammed til death into cement, but what I want to know is how they know, other than someone telling them he was there. Something direct that can really put him away for good that he can't blame on someone else or that his lawyer's can't discredit a witness's testimony on the cross-exam because it's right there for all to see/hear.

The thing that kind of struck me odd was that, at least from what I've heard, his cousin(or whoever he was) that lived at the house hasn't been charged/indicted yet. Perhaps he felt he was going to be hung out to dry and take the rap and has turned against Ron Mexico?!? just a thought

I wonder if this pack of degenerates was stupid enough to pull an Abu Ghraib and videotape everything, and that's how they can directly place Vick at the scene other than relying on witness testimony.

And without that videotape of Abu Ghraib, the military probably would have tried to cover it all up. The tape made it impossible. I guess I'm hoping that similar evidence surfaces in this case so the lawyers can't talk their way out of it.

Re: the local prosecutor.

A few FACTS:

1. Surry County has only ever prosecuted one dog fighting case in its history. In 2001. The outcome -- it was thrown out of court on a technicality, an illegal search of the home was done. Perhaps they were gun shy to proceed b/c they were gun shy from that experience -- when local investigators, and they were the first to look into this -- searched his property back in April there was talk then about how much they could legally search based on the wording of the warrant. Or maybe it was home cooking for a local boy of sorts in a rural community where folks turn a blidn eye to this kind of stuff. I can't really say, but that is the factual background.

2. Surry is a small county, about 7,000 people. The prosecutor is one of about 10 in VA who are part-time (the county is so small, as is its budget relatively speaking, that they don't have the money to pay him as a full-time employee). His office is his private law practice. There are rumblings, and they are just that at this point, that the feds may look to go after local officials for failure to proceed with this. THOSE ARE JUST RUMORS AT THIS POINT. It is also worth noting that once the feds stepped in, after the local investigation started, the local authorities were largely squeezed out of the process, which did hamper their ongoing investigation.

3. Both the sheriff and prosecutor are running for re-election this year.

4. Dogfighting prosecutions are on the rise nationally. As recently as 5-10 years ago these crimes were still misdemeanors in many states. It is now a felony in 48 of the 50 states today.

5. As to the jail time, it remains to be seen. The indictment, while damning, is based on prosecution claims, which is based both on hard evidence and witness testimony. Those witnesses are alleged to have been dog fighting participants. Any good attorney will attack their credibility. The threshold to get an indictment from a grand jury (made up of people) is much lower than it is to get a conviction in criminal proceedings (and you can bet Vick is taking a bench trial if this doesn't get settled out).

6. Lastly, Jamal Lewis was caught on tape in a phone sting. That is direct evidence neither he or his attorneys could not refute. If there isn't comparable evidence that directly ties Vick to this (video, audio, paperwork) a conviction with jail time isn't as certain. And for all that Jamal Lewis got a handful of months and he is back in the league and just got a decent contract from the Browns despite having two lacklusters seasons. My point is, don't be surprised if this gets settled for a fine, probation, etc.

If this case somehow gets dropped on a technicality, Goodell is going to be in an incredible bind. On one hand, the court of public opinion has essentially convicted Vick. On the other, Goodell really should not be able to impose any sort of penalty if a court of law cannot convict Vick.

If OJ had still been playing football after he killed Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown but escaped the charges, would he be able to return to the field?

Of course, Goodell has already dropped penalties on Pacman Jones, who has yet to be convicted in any of the 9 arrests he's faced...although I think everyone assumes it's a given that Pacman will one day wind up behind bars or dead at the hands of someone named Inky, Blinky, Pinky, or Clyde.

Pacman Jones is to criminal charges as 50 Cent is to bullets.

It is also worth noting that once the feds stepped in, after the local investigation started, the local authorities were largely squeezed out of the process, which did hamper their ongoing investigation.

Julamy - the locals may have been hampered some by the Feds, but they first did their investigation in April and have had more than enough time to proceed.

I live in Richmond and this story has been covered extensively - the fact of the matter is the local prosecutor was not going to proceed. You are correct in stating he was worried about the illegal search - they never executed a second search warrant because of his fear it was obtained on illegal grounds (i.e., the first warrant)

But he was critical of the Feds search and even stated it may have been based on race (trying to nail the rich black guy). The prosecutor is black himself. He repeatedly said that he didn't know why the Feds were involving themselves and he was handling the case - as the months clicked by with no further searches, no investigations.

I just think Vick's peeps found a way to get some Benjamins to this part-time prosecutor to make this go away. And damn those Feds - they had to stick their noses in and ruin everything.

If this case somehow gets dropped on a technicality, Goodell is going to be in an incredible bind. On one hand, the court of public opinion has essentially convicted Vick. On the other, Goodell really should not be able to impose any sort of penalty if a court of law cannot convict Vick.

The thing with this new "personal conduct" policy is it gives him the leeway to do whatever he wants.

If this was Ronnie Brown (for instance...just pulling a name out of a hat) I would say they should let it play out ans only suspend if he's convicted. The guy has no history and could be a complete victim.

With Vick, he's flicked off the fans, was caught up with the weed bottle, had the Rn Mexico scandal, recently skipped a hearing with congress on behalf of the NFL, etc.

While he hasn't been convicted of anything, you can't say this is just a "bad break"...in the latest in a series of bad breaks.

If a prominent doctor had this public track record over the past 2 years, would you say the Hospital would be wrong for suspending or firing him?

The other thing is some people tend to say "let the courts decide", which is fine. However, the NFL isn't a court of law...they can suspend because he's an embarrassment and don't need irrefutable evidence to do so.

"The other thing is some people tend to say "let the courts decide", which is fine. However, the NFL isn't a court of law...they can suspend because he's an embarrassment and don't need irrefutable evidence to do so. "

He also lied to Goodall's face about a month or ago when asked about the dog fighting. That could also give Goodall the ammo to suspend.

Marcus must be thrilled now that he is the good brother.

People like Marcus Vick b/c he makes Michael Vick look like Louis Farakan

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