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Camera has been confiscated, Pats may lose draft picks??

They tamper, they steal signals, they cut out radio transmissions, they hand out HGH to their players, they lie on the injury report...

They are a dirty franchise, but why should they stop when they never have to pay any real price for it?

If the league wants them to knock it off they'll give them a real stiff penalty, but I doubt they will and don't blame the Pats for taking advantage.

Cheating has been going on for how long?

Even with something as egregious as this, you can't think this is the only time this has happened. Nor is it the only time one team has cheated in the NFL, let alone in all of sports, to gain an advantage.

Not advocating it in the least. But it's only showing something that's been happening in the league for years now. And if they hammer down on cheating, where do we go from there without opening the Pandora's Box that is the NFL's drug testing policy?

I don't really see what is so egregious here, but it could be due to my own ingorance. The signals are being made on the field of play, right? Is the objection that he is using a device to make the signals easier to see? If he could see the signals without assistance, would it still be a problem? Like in baseball, I always thought that if the other team could pick up your signs, then your signs aren't good enough. Is it different in football? Is the objection that they are using technology that not all teams have available? If they were using binoculars, would it still be objectionable?

I think that the really objectionable part is the fact that the Patriots thought the only way they could beat the Jets was by cheating.

But doesn't everyone steal signs, or at least make an effort? I know more about baseball, but runner on second, a catcher may flash four signals and it will be, say, the third one he puts down that he wants the pitcher to throw. Runner on second has no clue what's been worked out between catcher and pitcher, and can't signal to the batter what's coming. You'd think with all the game tape and all the technology available to the NFL teams that they'd try to hide their signals a lot better, is all I'm saying.

It's egregious in that, unlike baseball, you have a better idea as to where the play is headed. Even beyond that, you still have to execute. In some cases, knowing the play by itself isn't good enough. Re: Manning.

Part of me wants to dismiss it because 1) this stuff happens everywhere in the NFL and you just don't see it; and 2) ESPN is pushing the "cheating in sports" thing to an all-time high. I doubt anything really gets done about this, just because of where it could lead.

The naive would like to think that sports is still about pure academic competition, but it's become so business oriented that if you're NOT trying to get ahead in some way, you're missing out. Not that I agree with it, but it's the way things are now.

Well, the Packers and LT from the Chargers also accuse the Pats of chicanery. Bellicheck is an ass, so I can believe it.

It doesn't matter what seems illogical, since there IS a rule prohibiting the use of cameras to steal signs/signals off opposing teams.

I hate the Pats.

Well, the league found them in violation. Assholes.

linc

I'm surprised there's been no "PATRIOT Act" jokes yet.

I again petition the league for the Lombardi trophy to be stripped from the Pats and given to the Eagles.

First, Harrison used his HGH to intercept passes and intimidate Freddie "Touches Down" Mitchell. Now, there is proof the Patriots steal signals.

It's pretty easy to see that they obviously saw Jim Johnson mouthing the words "sell out upfield...they'll never run the screen" about 7 plays in a row during the 3rd quarter and that led directly to the Pats victory.

So what's the right punishment to hand down here? Suspending Belichek for 4 games? Forfeiting the Jets game? Some people are arguing that the forfeit is out of line because the cheating had nothing to do with the final result, which is somewhat foolish, because introducing cheating in the equation makes it hazier.

Either way, Kraft didn't make things any easier on himself:

Patriots owner Robert Kraft was asked when he expected a verdict, but said those questions had to be directed toward Goodell.

"There is an investigation going on now, and perhaps an adjudication of it, and I think it would be inappropriate at this time to make any comment," Kraft told reporters at a charity appearance Tuesday. "When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that.

"We worked very hard to try to put an organization together that we all could be proud of in New England, and we're very proud of the New England Patriots organization and the record that they've established over the last 13 seasons and one game."

Some it looks like a Mangini v. Belicheck thing. Excerpt from today's NY Daily News:

A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.

It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.

Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules.

An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily.

Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.

"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."

Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.




http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/09/12/2007-09-12_eric_mangini_exposes_bill_belichicks_spy.html

Commish has ordered Billecheck to NY for a face to face.

NTF.

Here's a pic of the guy doing it - and it's showing that he's the only one pointed at the Jets while everyone else is pointed at the field:


Maxwell Smart, this guy is not.

Pretty ballsy to do that on someone else's field while standing RIGHT NEXT to them. Figure he'd at least be on the friendly side while filming them. Better angle, too, no?

Now they're saying that the above photo was doctored.

Belichick issues statement:

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner [Roger] Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league's decision, I will have further comment."

Big deal, they lose a 4th or 5th in 2009 for a win today. Even a fine is meaningless to a team that makes almost $100 million on the TV rights alone. There's no downside to cheating for a team.

If the NFL wants this to stop (and I'm not saying they do), they should take the win away from New England and void the stats of the players. When someone fails to meet their bonus numbers because Hobo Bill % Co were stealing signals, then the shit hits the fan.

Yup...

If they are really serious about this, they'll strip the Pats of the win and take away next year's first round pick.

It will significantly hurt the Pats and nationally embarras them.

If the NFL doesn't care about this sort of thing, they'll slap them on the wrist with a late 2nd day pick a couple years from now.

The thing is, with the Patriots, they've been doing this for years, they've been caught before, and they continue to do it.

The stadium headsets are the thing the league should tackle next. Teams used to screw with the visitors headsets so they couldn't call the plays in. The league stepped up and said if one sideline loses the headsets, neither sideline can use them. Now, teams will limit the headsets. create some static, make them cut out periodically, etc. so they are essentially useless for the visiting team but still "functional", which allows the home team to continue using theirs.

It's all gamesmanship on some level, but some of this stuff could be easily stopped if the league card.

The thing is, with the Patriots, they've been doing this for years, they've been caught before, and they continue to do it.

The beauty is that Bellicheck is explaining "his interpretation" of the rules which I'm sure were interpreted for him after the GB incident.

It's all gamesmanship on some level, but some of this stuff could be easily stopped if the league card.

Its assholemanship on many levels. I hate BS tactics to win what people like to perceive as a man's game. Implied is the sense of honor and fair play. If you want gamesmanship, disguise your blitzes and coverages. Disguise your passing options and hot routes. Don't be an ass.

Its assholemanship on many levels. I hate BS tactics to win what people like to perceive as a man's game. Implied is the sense of honor and fair play. If you want gamesmanship, disguise your blitzes and coverages. Disguise your passing options and hot routes. Don't be an ass.

It's not so cut and dry, though. A few years back on eof the Eagles players (a cornerback?) made a huge play near the end zone by watching tons of film and noticing that when one of the opposing WRs patted his backside twice, he was going on a post route. He saw it, read it, and it ended up being a game-changing play. I give a guy like that a ton of credit for taking his job so seriously that he tries to find tendencies in his opponents.

I think this is blatant dirty pool in this case, but it isn't that far away from legit.

There is something to be said about doing this on your opponent's sideline. The guy is lucky that a non-player, non-coach Jets employee didn't beat the cameraman senseless in the hallway.

Its assholemanship on many levels. I hate BS tactics to win what people like to perceive as a man's game. Implied is the sense of honor and fair play. If you want gamesmanship, disguise your blitzes and coverages. Disguise your passing options and hot routes. Don't be an ass.

I don't disagree, but that's like expecting the fox to watch the chicken coup. Without ramifications, why wouldn't some franchises bend the rules to win?

I don't like it, but I put it on the league. If they believe this is a serious infraction, they can make sure no team even considers it again with their punishment. We'll see what they do.

I watched the game again on tivo last night and, especially on run coverages, the pats looked like they knew exactly where the ball was going. But, that could just be my brain finding things that aren't really there.

Either way, the latest rumors are that they were listening in on plays as well as video taping them.

Time will tell

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