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I am amazed, by the way, at the certainty with which you guys dismiss me when you were dead wrong about this guy as recently as a few months ago.

nobody was "dead wrong" as far as I remember- it's just that you are the only one speaking in absolutes, which is what I think they are objecting to

f4f is fond of absolutes, I believe.

I work as hard as I have to.

I barely paid attention to classes in High School to get decent grades, but to get decent ones in college that I had to pay attention and do some work. I could work some jobs doing only what was required, but when I did eventually I was told that they wanted something more in my reviews and I wouldn't get a raise, so I had to find another job. Eventually, I had to get out of NYC to find something that I wanted to do, so I worked hard to save up some money to move out to Cali where I had to start all over again with experience that wasn't relevant on this coast. Then I had to suck up to a boss (which I never did before) to make sure I could keep a job because that's how small business work. Eventually when I had to get a new job and away from my last one, I had to pick up the slack because our whole department would suffer if I didn't.

So while I've also worked as hard as I had to, my work ethic over the course of my life has changed dramatically. I don't know how better to describe it Olv. If that's your outlook on life, that's genuinely pretty sad.

For all you guys on board with the PhD, I'd suggest taking a look at the new SI article.

Note that he admits to partying with Marcus non-stop until the shooting incident in February.

Then take a look at Vick's interviews in 2009, ie before that time. The same comments were coming from him as well as those around him. "Changed man". "First to arrive and last to leave". "Goes home and studies film".

You guys can buy the act all you want - hell, maybe he stays on the wagon for good this time.

What I'm saying is this: people like to tell stories. The idea that this former thug became a learned man in prison ("matured" as people like to say) and now is the best QB in football because of it is a nice story. It's also likely to be a gross exaggeration.

I suggest that he is dominant now primarily for two reasons: because they've put him in the right situation and because he hasn't lost the athletic ability he always had. To his credit, he's kept in shape and is saying the right things. But that isn't what's made him great; it's just kept him from giving it all away.

Lyte, it sounds like you've been driven by changing incentives rather than an inherently evolved work ethic. There is a difference, which I'd try to explain if I was better with nuance.

So, in say Vick's case, his incentives aren't different? In Atlanta all he had to do is show up and he got media hype, but now, he has to not only meticulously follow a much more complicated offensive system, but also navigate the off field issues.

you think trying to become the highest paid qb isn't "changing incentives"

Perhaps they are, in which case all credit goes to the Eagles.

Watch what happens when he bolts town next year and signs a megadeal with enough guaranteed money to cover his debt.

For KB - for now, yes. But once he's been paid? That'll be the real test.

Ok, then you do admit people can change that aspect of their work ethic

No, as I said to Lyte I see them as two different things. Incentives are dynamic and, in the USA, always revert to a have/need re: $$$. Work ethic is part of who you are.

So if I have more incentive to work harder, I cannot because my work ethic cannot be changed? Or the incentive will adjust my work ethic so that I work harder?

If you think Vick will change his work ethic as soon as he gets a big contract back to his herpies screwing, pot smoking, dog fighting ways, he will have tons of incentives not to for the rest of his life. That was part of what affected his work ethic before, not incentive but opportunity. Vick does not have those opportunities without giving up very much in the process.

right, but lyte showed how incentives changed the way he worked

If you read his post carefully, he confirms that his actual work ethic - ie his inherent view of working - never did change. Rather, he was forced into conformity by circumstance.

As I've said, this is the achievement of the Eagles. They got an ultra-talented, needy guy and plugged him into the perfect environment.

he pretty clearly stated he changed how he worked (picking up slack, kissing up) and his work ethic changed. that's his final statement on it, so if you're just flat out saying he's not, guess there's not much to discuss

Olv, that's how you read it? I think my work ethic (coasting through in school to a more severe attention to detail now) has changed dramatically. In school, my work ethic was show up, try to pay attention and figure stuff out on the fly. Now, I have to take notes, keep informed and updated, and read up on information beyond what is required in my job description so I can solve the problems I'm expected to or those no one feels the need to do.

I feel like I'm showing you an orange and you're calling it an apple.

KB, I'm convinced now, Olv=Mule.

I feel like I'm showing you an orange and you're calling it an apple.

I feel like you're showing me an apple and you think it's an orange.

Lyte, re-read your post above. You'r inherent view of work hasn't changed. You confirmed that every step of the way, you did what you had to because you were essentially forced to, otherwise you wouldn't have made it.

Now consider Vick. He's pretty much already guaranteed himself a $35m+ payday already, perhaps much more, whereas 16 months ago he was on the verge of being out of football and $20m in debt.

So we'll see whether this is a man who's really changed or if he's a guy whose short term incentives are perfectly aligned with the Eagles' situation.

this is the dumbest argument ever

olv, he only guaranteed that by playing like this. that's where the work ethic comes in.

Fred, kb, you are both correct.

To be clear, the 'work ethic' argument here is semantic. You guys define work ethic as 'working hard', I define it as a virtue and trait (like patience, temperament, etc). Who really cares

My post at 6:47 sums up my view here as well as I'm capable.

olv, forget Vick for a second. You said there's one thing that NEVER changes in people, it's work ethic.

That is demonstrably false to most of us because we know people (ourselves included for many of us) whose work ethic HAS changed.

I know longer work just hard enough to make just enough to go to the bar on the weekend, changing jobs when needed/forced to to keep that paycheck coming. I work hard enough to make enough to support my family.

My work ethic in high school was nonexistent. It has changed.

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