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While I still worry about him getting hurt, it's got to be very hard for people not to buy into his redemption story. Here's the take I've had on his whole story:

-grew up in a poor area, made friends that were up to no good, no real role models
-amazing talent got him to college and the NFL where he indulged because he had developed poor values and had no reinforcement of morals
-arrested and convicted of a crime, went to jail, lost everything
-rehabilitated in jail, worked with people to enforce morals and values, was released and given a second chance
-exibited solid character and initiative to improve himself and others, patience to get a chance to prove he can be better on and off the field

It is probably the greatest modern day sports redemption story. If he can pull a storybook ending to this season, Disney will make a movie about him. He'll get a rediculous payday and people won't care. He will take care of the people that took care of him (like at the club).

He was sentenced to time in prison, and he served his time.

True, but the idea that because you've served your time means you've paid your debt to society implies that you believe the justice system always doles out the proper amount of punishment/time, which to me is a very servile attitude and not one I'd expect you to have, Talon.

Not everyone is going to agree that the amount of time he served in jail is commensurate with his crime, and I guess that's where I'm at. So the whole "paid his debt" notion in Vick's case doesn't apply to me and probably a lot of other people. And when a criminal serves his time (assuming you think the sentence is a proper one) is he then automatically forgived for them? How does that concept fit into the picture in your opinion?

I'll admit I'm not being objective and perhaps I'm being irrational but it's pretty hard for me to forget the gruesome and disturbing images/stories that came from that whole thing.

You are irrational about this.

Colin Cowherd had a good line this morning regarding Vick..."this is America, we don't cut off your arm, we give you a second chance."

I am not saying he doesn't deserve a second chance.

I said this back when they signed him and I really don't feel like diving into it again, but what the hell else do you want short of some savage act?

He lost all his money, his career, his endorsements and his dignity. What else should have happened to him? A prison rape? Seriously.

What has he given back to society?

He lost all his money, his career, his endorsements and his dignity

Boo hoo. Yeah, this is what happens to criminals. Just because he happened to have more than others I should feel more sorry for him? If you bothered to read my post I said I believe the time did not fit the crime.

He took Bob Barker's philosophy a bit too far.

zak, the point is that he has paid his debt to society, in that he served his time as sentenced. further, he served far more time that almost anybody ever has for this particular crime.

the notion of forgiveness and the notion of "paying your debt" to society are two different things.

he has clearly paid his debt as much as he possible (he can't uncommit the crimes); whether you, or anyone, chooses to forgive him is another matter entirely.

What has he given back to society?

He's given realistic playoff hopes to Eagles fans.

I said this back when they signed him and I really don't feel like diving into it again, but what the hell else do you want short of some savage act?

let be perfectly honest, bma. you don't consider what he did a crime at all, and view him as a martyr for property rights.

so you shouldn't really be in this discussion at all.

zak, the point is that he has paid his debt to society, in that he served his time as sentenced.

Again, I think this is a very servile attitude and not one I'm on board with.

flesh, if SZR can't square away rooting for the guy versus what happened with the dogs, that's fine but lamenting about it now isn't going to really do anything.

SZR, I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything, sorry at any rate.

He paid his debt for the crime he committed. What is he giving back to society in return for his second chance? (To prosper, live a somewhat normal life without constant ridicule.)

Again, I think this is a very servile attitude and not one I'm on board with.

you left out my second sentence. he went to jail for far longer than anyone else does for this crime. now, maybe that doesn't make a difference to you, but it's a factor for me.

flesh, if SZR can't square away rooting for the guy versus what happened with the dogs, that's fine but lamenting about it now isn't going to really do anything.

i don't follow. he's not lamenting, he's explaining why he can't root for vick.

you left out my second sentence. he went to jail for far longer than anyone else does for this crime. now, maybe that doesn't make a difference to you, but it's a factor for me.

Yeah, this is the part I just don't get. He paid about as high a price as one can pay for the crimes he committed.

I thought Stallworth doing a couple weeks by paying off the family of the guy he killed was disgusting. I thought Leonard Little killing someone and not doing any time was disgusting.

The guy did, what...more than two years in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison and was bankrupted.

The maximum for animal cruelty looks to be five years which in my opinion is too low for the types of crimes committed here so of course I won't agree that just because he served more time than most means that he served the correct amount of time. Anyway he served 23 months. Let's not also forget the illegal gambling ring that he bankrolled and the fact that his own state basically let him off the hook. I'd say he got off pretty easy.

So if he did 5 years, would you think that was fair?

And, I'll say for the record, I think a man hitting a woman is worse than a man letting one dog rape another dog.

the notion of forgiveness and the notion of "paying your debt" to society are two different things.

Right, I thought I made that clear by putting them in separate paragraphs. But it all ties into the same notion (i.e. does a person get a clean slate just because they served time).

And, I'll say for the record, I think a man hitting a woman is worse than a man letting one dog rape another dog

Well it depends on the context, for me. If it's habitual abuse then yes, obviously. Absolutely.

But if it's an honest mistake made in the heat of the moment, I could see it differently.

Vick's behavior was premeditated and systematic and, in my opinion, a greater threat to civilized society (based on studies that serial killers get their start by practicing on animals).

So if he did 5 years, would you think that was fair?

Don't have a number in mind but it would be more than the 23 mos. I can see why others think it's fair though. But I'm not speaking for others only myself.

That's based on your view of where dogs are in society, SZR.

I know a guy who has a large farm and gets rid of extra cats he can't give away by putting them in a burlap bag with a bunch of rocks and throwing them into a pond.

That sounds fucking nuts to me, but the cats, to him, serve a purpose...eating mice. Too many cats means some starve, some get hit by cars searching for food, and he thinks it's inhumane to let that happen, so he off them in what he believes is the most efficient way.

That might make him a weirdo, but he's not a serial killer, either.

The notions that animals are essentially on par with humans isn't one a lot of people grow up with.

SZR, I can see the point that, if it was murdering a person, you get charged for each count of murder so in this case some could argue that he should have received a max of 5 years PER DOG, which even if they reduced his sentence by the same percentage would have put him in jail for 13.416 years, or about 161 months (13 years 5 months). (math, 23mth served/60 months in 5 years*5 years*7 dogs killed).

Would 13+ years in jail fit the bill SZR?

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